Brăilago

Brăila, Go, restul se înţelege

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Fantezie amuzantă

Autorul postării de mai jos pretinde că aceasta este o problemă de logică.

Mie mi se pare că este doar o problemă ce duce la un paradox. Și pentru că e vorba de fantezii precum cititul minții sau a viitorului, nu este altceva decît o fantezie, pe care eu o văd ca fiind amuzantă.

În plus, apare și un goban care pare a fi prezent în Dune. Dar curios, Dune nu apare în listele cu filme ce conțin referințe la Go. Să fie o scăpare?

Dar iată și problema. Este trasă la temă cu Goul, și cu Dune de altfel, pentru că e valabilă pentru orice joc al minții. Deci cine ar cîștiga o partidă de Go dacă unul dintre jucători poate vedea viitorul iar celălat poate citi mințile?

Paradoxul mi se pare ca fiind o buclă a celor două capacități. Citind mintea celui ce vede viitorul, practic vezi și viitorul. Iar cel ce vede viitorul, vede acțiunea celuilat, deci practic vede rezultatul minții, deci e ca și cum o citește.

Și pentru că este amuzant, voi copia mai jos și cele 81 de comentarii.

  • Richard Lee

    The mind reader would have better chances of winning, unless playing against AI, then I might put my money on the future seer.
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  • Michaela Gallucci

    Given how many moves I play without a crystal clear understanding of what would happen, I’d say the future seer would win. If they read my mind they wouldn’t find much 🤣
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  • Sergei Lewis

    „Stop thinking up bad moves for me!” – „Nope, suck it up, use your own brain!”
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    • Дмитрий Туровский

      Sergei Lewis Kin-dza-dza. soviet science fiction comedy movie. 1986. 🙂
      And the answer was
      „How can I use my own brain if i see those black and white buttons for the first time?”
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  • Charles Adamson

    The person who sees the future only sees the outcome but can not change it. However, the mind reader could use the information to counter the ideas. Therefore, the mind reader has a greater chance of winning.
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    • Bojanic Milos

      Author
      +1
      Charles Adamson as seen in the Dune, Paul can see other possible futures too.
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    • Charles Adamson

      I haven’t seen Dune so I did not know. But even so, seeing multiple futures would not, I would think, allow you to chose between them.
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  • Matthew Frye

    It depends what you believe about free will.
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  • Ben Abraham

    Shusako
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  • Roger Clarke

    Are they playing against each other? Then the mind reader can see the future too.
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  • Pierre-Emmanuel Levesque

    There is are problems in both cases.
    Reading Minds: What if your opponent makes a plan then makes a move based on that plan. You read his or her mind and make a move to foil that plan. Then your opponent thinks again and sees an even better plan that your move did not foil, so they make a new move for that plan – but this plan is full proof and cannot be stopped. The trust is, correctly reading the board is more power than correctluy reading your opponent’s mind.
    Seeing the future: If you see the future, but it cannot be changed, what’s the point? You see that you will lose the game. OK, you lose. You see that your opponent will make a certain move on move 10, OK, he makes it. If you now say that you can change the future, then you aren’t really seeing it in the first place I guess. Again, correctly reading the board and being able to see the future of each line is the most powerful since it helps you play stronger moves.
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    • Patrick Leblanc

      Within the framework of Dune, Paul sees many possible futures depending on what he (or his entourage) do any particular point. However the exact points aren’t always clear to him. Moments of intense conflict with too many possible outcomes tend to be p…

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    • Pierre-Emmanuel Levesque

      It just seems a bit ridiculous and pointless to talk about <seeing the future> in games like go and chess. That’s exactly what what the game is about – and we already have a name for it – called reading in go, called calculating in chess. Or, does seei…

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    • Howard Li

      Playing against mind reader: Just play moves which I can’t find weakness. If all the moves in my mind are good for myself, reading my mind doesn’t help him. He still need to find a move that can beat mine all by himself
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  • Patrice Rochon

    White would win with 0,5 point.
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  • Tedward Gaines

    If they’re playing each other, the mind reader can also see the future
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    • Alex Cooley

      Tedward Gaines But the seer can predict the mind reader’s moves XD.
      Seriously though, I agree with what you said. I feel like the mind reader would win.
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    • Elijah Edward Kohrt

      Tedward Gaines My opponents thoughts are heavily influenced by my moves so I wouldn’t even be able to predict their next move a lot of time tbh. xD
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  • Michael B. Berthelsen

    I think it depends on whether the mind-reader can hear EVERYTHING in the mind they’re reading, or only active, concious thoughts…🤔
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  • Ondra Kruml

    isnt it kinda same as if you play against yourself?
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  • Patrick Müller

    I think the answer is the one who is better at playing go.
    The futureseer could see possible outcomes, but the mind reader would know everything he knows, so that is no advantage.
    The trick to beating a mind reader, however, is playing by instinct without really thinking about the various moves your opponent (the mind reader) could make. Just play clean, precise shape moves, get ahead in board state without ever thinking about what the mind reader should do, until you’re far enough ahead in points that he can’t catch up even if he reads your every single reading of the board.
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  • Freeman Ng

    If Paul’s prescience is not just knowledge of what must be, but works the same way it does for the Spacing Guild — i.e. allowing them to steer the optimal course through all coming obstacles — then Paul would win. Reading in his mind that he has plot…

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  • Paul Bloemen

    I would call this inconclusive. I would put my money on the side that can minimax the game.
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  • Jesse Cnockaert

    It depends on whether or not we live in a deterministic universe.
    Maybe they can see the future is one where they lose, but constrained by cause and effect, they cannot change the outcome.
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  • Michael Kris

    Are we assuming both players are equally Strong at go? Also the mind readers ability trumps the ability to see the future in a 1v1 game since anything the future teller can see will be seen by the mind reader at the same time
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  • Петар Миодраговић

    It’s a Seki then…no win – no lose…eternal stillness…so singularity wins bouth 😅
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  • Dejan Stankovic

    Hilarious 😂
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  • Cacie Prins

    paul would win … The only real part of bene gesserit training that’s psychic is the transference of knowledge & experiences from one reverend mother to another … the rest is just very accurate reading of body language 😉 it’s something david lynch d…

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  • Jesse Cox

    Is it perfect each way?
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  • Justin Spicer

    The Reverend mother Gaius Helen Mohiam can not read minds
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  • Eva-Dee Beech

    Can somebody explain to me how “future vision” in Go is any different from reading
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    • Sam Holt

      Eva-Dee Beech no reading required with future vision. You can consider a move by simply looking at the games outcome; does it lead to victory or not? Which is why mind reading would lose. All you would read it „this move leads to victory” and gain no i…

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      • Eva-Dee Beech

        Sam Holt I guess this largely depends on the type of future vision. I was thinking of a more limited one
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    • Chris Walljasper

      Eva-Dee Reading correctly? 😂
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  • Marc Willerth

    The funny thing is that both of these „superpowers” are regularly employed in teaching games… Talking through plans and ideas up front (so the student knows what the teacher is thinking) , and letting the student go back to an earlier point in the ga…

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  • سارة الجندى

    mind reading, seeing the future won’t tell you specifics depending on how the power is manifested
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  • Scott Busby

    Mind reader could pick up the future from the future seeing opponent. So both would see the future.
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  • Swamii Nairtsepur

    In the movie ‘the divine move 2’, the protagonist plays against a fortune teller, the fortune teller only accepts challengers if the loser amputates his hand. He has a collection of hands and even knowing that he would lose, he plays.
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  • Sergio Vaca

    The one who could see the future, cause he only play whenever he saw himself as a winner 😉
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  • Свилен Стефанов Павлов

    The truthsayer is terrified by Paul at that point… She will definitely loose the game. In the books it says why she is scared. All the female Bene Gesserit can pierce up to a point. There is a dark spot in their seeing like a vail they can not percei…

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  • Kody Laing

    The answer here is simple. The one who can read minds. Because if you can read minds, and your opponent sees the future, then you can also see the future
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    • Chad Gessner

      That’s what I was thinking. If you can read minds and you are playing against someone who can see the future you can also see the future, and read minds. At the same time :0
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  • Thomas Gilchrist

    Paul would win probably, but only because his powers outstripped hers. Play this scenario out vs his mother at her prime though and it gets more interesting. Paul’s mother, daughter…..and possibly sister (not sure on this one) were more formidable than the emperor’s truthsayer was.
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  • Darrell Townsend

    Reading the future, reading my mind would not help your sanity
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  • Ray Tomes

    Seeing the future is not changing it.
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  • Gunnar Dickfeld

    Let them play in lightning/blitz time conditions or heavy byoyomi.
    None would have enough time to read the future or the opponent’s mind.
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  • Elijah Edward Kohrt

    Whichever one is better at go.
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  • Peter Mooyman

    You’re all assuming there’s only one future – when seeing the future, you’re only seeing one possible/probable future… so the mind-reader would win.
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    • Свилен Стефанов Павлов

      Not really. You see all diverging paths and all the inevitabilities, which converge them back.
      The sad bit is that Paul tries his best to stir the future in a way for avoiding the holly war (jihad) in his name. He becomes a prophet in the desert and foresees the extinction of humanity. His son (Leto Atreides II) takes the golden path. He merges with the worms, which produce the spice and lives for more than 3 500 years being a God Emperor. He is able to see the future too. During that period Arakis is no more a desert planet, the worms producing the spice are extinct, the genealogical Bene Gesserit „program” is taken over by Leto II…
      There is only one future you can live through. You are assuming what others are assuming. Imagine having the knowledge of all possible outcomes of a Go board. That will be a solution to the mathematical problem, which is the game of Go. Once solved you shall know who the winner always will be (depending on komi). Is it always a win for the Black, is it always a win for the White, and with the proper komi – is it always a draw. Once solved this you can not loose. In the situation of a proper komi and always a draw game, you can not win either. A mind reader is irrelevant in this case. It will all depend on the solution to the game and on the nigiri. Prescience beats mind reading on nigiri always. You can as well throw mind reading away, or taking it on a ride, foreseeing billions of possible futures. Mind reading should have to make a choice at some point, which will collapse the future. For mind reading the connection between the choice and the effects of it may not be as clear as for the seeing the future. Imagine living your life, and then imagine someone watching a movie based on the story someone else wrote about you living your life. The mind is an interpreter, and you are able to set it aside whenever you wish to. Knowing the future does not require
      you to think about it. It you are not thinking about it, what is there on your mind, which a mind reader would be able to read? Nothing, or something not connected to the game, you are „playing”… Knowing the future is more like a constant state of a déjà vu. It’s hard to explain. 😉 Once you remember being in such a state there is nothing to be explained, really. You just know.
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  • Martin Jurek

    Depends on how the future telling works, but I’d bet my spice on Paul. If I remember correctly Paul can see a variety of futures and more or less decide which one to follow (some futures being uncertain). I think it works similar to when an AI „sees” (…

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    • Свилен Стефанов Павлов

      Uncertainty comes from the existence of multiple variables (humans) and the unpredictability of some human beings. In a Go game those are not an issue. You have a mathematical solution to the game. A path from beginning to end, which should lead to 100% win with the current rules. If you know the solution to the game, all will depend on nigiri. Prescience beats mind reading on nigiri every time. You eleminate chance with it.
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  • Matthew Hipkiss

    Fenring was not a mentat. That was Piter De Vries
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  • Дмитрий Туровский

    I think the winner is the one who better understands the meaning of moves.
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  • Eliphas Levi Strauss

    This isn’t a „logical puzzle”, but speculation about fictional characters with fictional powers.
    The answer is „whatever the author decides” because, again, they aren’t real.
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  • Claudio Gonzalez

    Somebody in Argentina beat you to this meme idea long, long ago
    May be a cartoon of 1 person
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  • Kartik Aman Saraf

    Probably that future thing. Learning where someone is going to play rather than what they’re doing now is more useful in go.
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  • Mi Go

    Depends on who is playing black 🧐
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  • Ultimate Rock-Paper-Scissors Vol.1 Chapter 9 - Manganelo
    CHAP.MANGANELO.COM
    Ultimate Rock-Paper-Scissors Vol.1 Chapter 9 – Manganelo

    Ultimate Rock-Paper-Scissors Vol.1 Chapter 9 – Manganelo

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  • Clayton Smith

    Unlike rock paper scissors I posted above, go doesn’t have a deterministic and predictible win/loss result table with clear counter plays.
    unless the bene gresserit is just better at go, Paul would win – he could look into the future of each move he …

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  • Lukas Krämer

    I have an answer for Pauls case, but it contains critical spoilers.
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    • Sighris Zargon

      Admin
      Group expert
      No spoilers Lukas Krämer!!! I have not read the book in about 30 years, and I’ve forgotten a lot, plus the movie might be different than the book…. and I’ve not yet seen the newest movie version…. but I will soon…. BTW, I posted about the book back in the early days of the ‘net. My earliest posts have been lost/deleted, but here is an old one (over 15 years ago, 2005): https://sighris.livejournal.com/73437.html
      A quote from Frank Herbert
      SIGHRIS.LIVEJOURNAL.COM
      A quote from Frank Herbert

      A quote from Frank Herbert

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  • Nonarit Bisonyabut

    Probably a 20 kyu game…
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  • Alexandre Filipe

    One who can read Minds could also read the future since the mind he read was reading the future. The answer will be who has better skill, because reading or not ultimately the skill would decide it since they both start from the same spot
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  • Phil Yeager

    Paul. After ingesting the Spice Melange and converting it. He would win.
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  • May be an image of text
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  • Lum Wenkang

    Neither cause neither know how to counter it
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  • Evan Histed

    Imma go with mind reader. Reading the mind of someone who sees the future allows the mind reader to see the same futures.
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  • Max Gronald

    They try it in Twilight, no? Edward vs. Alice (but I think it’s Chess)
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  • Neal Christensen

    Seeing the future is useless if it is immutable. You’ll know how you and your opponent will play, but you won’t be able to change the outcome.
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  • Troy Wahl

    This is a question without meaning to a true strategist: we see the future and read our opponent’s mind through our analysis…
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  • Bojanic Milos

    Author
    +1
    So let’s make the conclusion on this.
    As noted before, this is not the original puzzle. Previously it was made for chess. The solution for chess is much easier since the draw is quite often the result of a chess game – which is not possible in Go.
    Analysis and solution to chess puzzle can be seen on this video:
    Who Would Win in a Chess Match, Someone Who Can See the Future or Someone Who Can Read Minds? Puzzle
    YOUTUBE.COM
    Who Would Win in a Chess Match, Someone Who Can See the Future or Someone Who Can Read Minds? Puzzle

    Who Would Win in a Chess Match, Someone Who Can See the Future or Someone Who Can Read Minds? Puzzle

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  • Bojanic Milos

    Author
    +1
    The great problem in the puzzle given here is that we basically don’t know anything about it. Here are the most important aspects of this puzzle:
    – strength of Go players – we don’t know their strength, and whether one is stronger
    – mind-reading – how does it function at all? Can the mind-reader sense everything that the opponent is thinking or just his first move?
    – seeing the future – how does this function? If one can see what will happen in the future then it is the set path and not much use of it.
    If one can see what would be the outcome of one move, then it would be very useful to follow this path.
    Overall, the mind-reader could follow the path of one who could see the future, thus annulling his special ability and possibly a stronger level at go.
    But there is a problem – even if players are of the same strength, or can read each other minds to play at the same level – in go there must be a winner, a draw is not an option.
    So we can see that outcome of this game would be very difficult to predict.
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  • Zhuo Jia Dai

    Ur futue could be u losing so seeing it ain’t gonna help. Better be able to read minds
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  • Paweł Kozioł

    In Dune universe seeing future is not an exact science (not all paths are seen) and Bene Gesserit mind reading is somewhat restricted when it comes to male souls, so result would be in doubt, and I’d expect a game on superhuman level.
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